*Spoilers* Snape Theory

topic posted Wed, July 27, 2005 - 10:44 PM by  Unsubscribed
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ok. obviously there are spoilers from the 6th book. but since were all hardcore fans. I can't imagine anyone who hasn't read it yet.









oi. ok, the death of dumbledore hit me really really hard. but what really tore me apart is that even after Snape killed him. I still trusted him... I didn't believe he was dead untill Harry saw his body... And that made me hate Snape even more. The fact that I still trusted him.
My friend had an interesting theory that I've been heartfully thinking about in all aspects. But there are a lot of open ends. The theory is that Snape is still good, and that Dumbledore planned his death. I know, sounds a bit insane. I don't have my heart into it. But hear me out.
One big clue toward this is the argument Hagrid overheard. (pg. 405)

" "Well -- I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer granted an' maybe he -- Snape -- didn' wan' ter do it anymore --"
"Do what?"
"I dunno, Harry, it sounded like Snape was feelin' a bit overworked, tha's all -- anyway, Dumbledore told him flat out he'd agreed ter do it an' that was all there was to it. Pretty firm with him. ----" "

This could go either way. It could mean that Snape didn't want to go through with killing Dumbledore. But Dumbledore thought it was the only way.

Now one thing I really didn't get about this theory is that what would be the perpose of killing Dumbledore? Well the only thing I could come up with is that this was the only way for Snape to become truelly close to Voldemort. Maybe Snape had to do something for Harry. Weaken Voldemort, lead him astray, take somthing, I do not know.

What kills me is that we still do not know why Dumbledore trusted Snape. Yes, we heard Harry's version of what he thought it was. But we never heard it from Dumbledore. I think in the end, weather Snape is good or bad, we will probably hear how he got Dumbledore to trust him.

Now I also thought,. But Dumbledore pleaded with Snape. But he never said "save me" he just said. "Please, Snape". wich could mean he was asking him to go through with their plan. Buty also, I think when "revulsion and hatred" is etched in Snapes face when he is looking at Dumbledore, I'm not sure that was the case.

Ok. most of my proof towards this theory is expressed. now I have a greater amount of info against my own theory. hehe.

the argument in the forest also could have been Snape not wanting to go through with staying on their side (or somthing of that matter).

And of course there is the million and 1 proof as Snape being truly evil and never really on the good side. hehe. But I wanted to mention something. OIn another topic in this forum, someone (hermione?) brought up that J.K> Rowling had said that there was a huge clue in book 1. I think it might be the fact that Harry got a pain in his scar FROM SNAPE. Harry has never had his scar hurt from anyone else but Voldemort (correct me if i'm wrong). Now I just don't know what that means. But it doesn't bode well. It could mean something that Snape was connected to Voldemort, probably by the Dark Mark, or maybe Snape was really really close to voldemort. Because i don't think Harry would get a pain in his scar just from soemone who was a death eater. So this also opens up a theory that Snape is a horcrux. Ack! ok I think I'm just going far out here. ok. I think all my thoughts are out.

p.s. sucked that I finished the book after my mom. so when I started sobbing i had to say it was "that time of the month" and I was stressed. As to not give away that someone was going to die.
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  • Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

    Wed, July 27, 2005 - 10:53 PM
    Well, one of the main reason Dumbledore wanted Snape to go through with it is because Dumbledore did not want Malfoy to die.

    Jay
    • Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

      Thu, July 28, 2005 - 10:40 AM
      I believe that, too ... I don't think that there WAS a reason for AD to die until he found out (from Snape, IMHO, possibly in the forest), that Draco may be trying to kill AD, and that Snape Vowed to 'Cissa that he would finish it, no matter what. So, I think the plan was in place, and that's why I think that it was toward the end of the book when AD decided, "Screw it - I'm going after the locket, doesn't seem any way out of drinking the stuff, so I might as well do it first, if I have to sacrifice these old bones for the greater good, anyway."
    • Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

      Thu, July 28, 2005 - 10:42 AM
      Or to have become a murderer.
      • Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

        Thu, July 28, 2005 - 12:56 PM
        For AD to have become a murderer? I was talking about Dumble dore. I'm confused.

        IS Snape just an evil murderer? WE DON'T KNOW! LOL! It wouldn't be so much fun to discuss if there was only one side to it!!! Go, Snape haters! *smooch*
        • Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

          Thu, July 28, 2005 - 1:47 PM
          That was supposed to be threaded to Jason's comment . . . Dumbledore didn't want Malfoy to become a murderer . . .

          ACK!
          • Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

            Thu, July 28, 2005 - 1:47 PM
            I LOVE Snape!
            • Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

              Thu, July 28, 2005 - 2:31 PM
              ROFL! This "thread" thing is sooooooooo annoying at times!
              • Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

                Thu, July 28, 2005 - 6:06 PM
                So, maybe Snape was just talking about being a double agent. Maybe he wanted a vacation and that hardass boss of his wouldn't let him take a week to rub sun tan lotion over Drac...I mean some woman in the Bahamas. So, obviously DD deserved it, man. Give us our union rights or die, biatch! Oh yea!

                But seriously, they could of just been talking about the DE thang. Maybe he wanted to lay low for a while.

                Or he was tired of getting women for DD.

                Or he was sick of DD asking Snape to show his little HBP off in the woods.
                • Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

                  Thu, July 28, 2005 - 8:12 PM
                  LOL Holli! <3

                  "Or he was tired of getting women for DD."

                  Hey! maybe that's the REAL reason DD wanted to bring Slughorn back to Hogwarts...he's much better than Snape at collecting the boys and girls ;-)

                  ...OR maybe Snape was jealous of all the time DD was spending with Harry!

                  *ahem* at any rate...even though I firmly believe that Snape killing DD was a charade, I still can't supress a certain amount of revulsion over the fact that he killed DD T_T (would be nice if DD isn't really dead but I'm only going to take that one with a grain of salt.)
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

                    Sat, July 30, 2005 - 11:59 AM
                    i am a Snape lover and i noticed that Snape was still teaching Harry While running with Draco ( page 603 " Blocked again and again until you learn to keep your mouthe shut and your mind closed, Potter!" sneered Snape") if i was evil i wouldn't be giving my bosses archenemy pointers. I think that DD set it up to keep Draco from having to do the deed because he knew he lacked the conviction and the only reason that he would do it is because his family was in danger. Snape i believe did this at DD's request and the hatered is because he hated DD for making him do this. Another interesting angle a friend brought up to me is what if Harry is one of the Horcruxes

                    i don't agree cause Voldemort has tried to kill him but what do you all think.
                    • Unsu...
                       

                      Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

                      Sat, July 30, 2005 - 2:56 PM
                      ya. Snape always seems to be teachign them something. Harry may hate him for it, but he just gives to many small pointers..

                      Harry being a horcrux is an interesting theory... I guess the one way it would fit is that after Voldy killed his parents, he could make a horcrux.. maybe he did it by.. accident??. I dunno. But its a slight possibility.

                      thanks for all the adds to my theory though! it's making more sense. especially with Dumbledore not wanting Malfoy to die or kill him. Snape and Dumbledore probably might have forseen this because Dumbledore probably knew about Snape's unbreakable vow.

                      I have always had this gut suspicion of some kind that Malfoy will be good in the end. When Dumbledore was talkign to him about his options, Malfoy was definatly considering them. I think he just doesn't want his parents to die...
                      • Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

                        Sat, July 30, 2005 - 3:52 PM
                        I just always remember that Harry is a teenager that cannot see that his parents were people because he never knew them so unlik eother teens who resent their parents during those years he idolizes them so Snape who with reason has issue with Harry's father Says something Harry gets up in arms about it because his parents are larger than life and on top of that they died to save him. so now they are these super heros in his mind. Then on the other hand Snape has resentment from his turbulent teen age years tha he cannot bring to a close because James is not around to tell him sorry i was such a jerk so Snape has tranfered his resentment towards Harry and is trying disabuse harry of his ideal that his dad is some saint.
                        • Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

                          Sun, July 31, 2005 - 5:10 AM
                          I can see how Snape transfers his dislike for James onto Harry but I would say that it is too much. So, that leads me to think A) Snape is a giant turd or B) Snape is acting this role. He has to 1) make the slytherins and anybody else watching think he does hate Harry and 2) make sure those people believe Harry is a mediocre untalented wizard. So, it seems that he always talks down to Harry esp. in front of the Slytherin's and and is always saying how little ability he has. That gives anybody observing or trying to legillimens Snape the impression that Snape does hate Harry and believe he is dumb. Another thing, I think he is trying to do is what has been brought up, teach Harry not just potions but confronting an enemy. Snape was this tangible enemy that Harry was able to year after year battle against. He could feel this hatred towards him and he could focus his anger upon that enemy. Had Snape not been there to hate on, could or would Harry have ever really been ready to face a mortal enemy like Voldemort who was not even corporeal until the end of book 4. Sure he knew V wanted to kill him but it is a lot different to know that and then to face that. Yes, he did face and defeat V year after year but it was always because he was driven to prove something about Snape. So, I think Snape has been teaching him along, probably giving him the best tools he could to fight V in the end.
  • Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

    Sun, July 31, 2005 - 3:40 PM
    "the fact that Harry got a pain in his scar FROM SNAPE."

    didn't he feel the pain while Snape was talking to Quirrell?
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

      Sun, July 31, 2005 - 3:58 PM
      hmm yes.. good point.. but I guess this is just a clue with many open ends. heres the passage in the book

      "It happened suddenly. The hook-nosed teacher looked past Quirrell's turban into Harry's eyes -- and a sharp, hot pain shot across the scar on Harry's forehead.
      "ouch!" Harry clapped a hand to his head.
      "What is it?" asked Percy.
      "N-nothing."
      The Pain had gone as quikly as it had come. Harder to shake off the feeling Harry had gotten from the teacher's look -- a feeling that he didn't like Harry at all."


      ack. theres just to many things at work here... But an interesting fact to keep in mind. Yes, he had just looked passed Quirrel. But he wasn't talking to Quirrel yet. Snape started talking to him after he looked at Harry.

      The feelign Harry got from Snape though... That's not an analysis Harry thought up. that was pure feelings. And the fact that Snape did this at a glance, off handedly. This could mean he had his gaurd down or somthing... Or, maybe Snape did this very thing on perpose to set His and Dumbledore's plan in motion.. hmm. ok. brainstorming is over.
  • Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

    Sun, July 31, 2005 - 4:05 PM
    I think Dumbledore knew he had to die. His acquiring and purifying Marvolo's ring took a lot out of him. It was a double whammy, because if Snape was to be on the side of the good and still be a spy; he had to show Voldemort that he is willing to all that it takes to prove his worth as a Death Eater. What better way than to kill the mighty Dumbledore. What I think promotes your theory is that Snape did try to kill Harry or try to capture him. I mean Snape is probably the second most proficient Dark Arts user. This a little Star Wars like but when Dumbledore died; he didn't really died. He will be in the headmaster's office always. I think it is obvious why Dumbledore trusted Snape. He is a half blood, or a murky blood. The Death Eaters are obsessed with being pure bloods. What would they do if they found out if Snape is a half blood. Considering not very many people know the origins of Voldemort, they will probably kill Snape.
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

      Sun, July 31, 2005 - 4:18 PM
      hehehe. your right. I forgot about Dumbledore's portait in the headmaster office. hehe.

      and I also had a few more thoughts. We still do not know how Dumbledore got the ring (or do we? ack.. I need to read the book again). We also still do not know why Dumbledore trusts Snape. and I remember Snape saying that Harry was not ready to learn something. I forget what it was. But you still don't know waht it is.

      That's one thing I've always believed in myself. Truth. it is powerful thing. and a lot of times, you don't need to hear it. Sometimes people won't tell me somthing. And I'm fine with that. I'm just not supposed to know, and I'll find out in time when it's necessary for me to know.
      And that's why I love Dumbledore's aprouch of teachign Harry. He always just told him what he needed to know. I know he changed his methods a bit through the last two books. But he still hasn't told him a few things. I think this will lead Harry to learn properly and grow... Damn. I mean, look at Harry now! If Dumbledore didn't die he would still be sitting cozily somewhere. thinking about Quidditch plays for next year. Ack! I just love Harry in the 6th book. He's grown up so much.. *sniff sniff* ack!
      ok. overload of awsomeness~! I'm out of here.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

        Tue, August 2, 2005 - 12:46 PM
        I agree that if Dumbledore didn't die, Harry wouldn't be growing into his own man.

        I also think (hope) that Snape and Dumbledore planned his death. Remember, Snape hesitated before agreeing to that part of the unbreakable vow, he was probably really struggling with what he knew he had to do.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

          Wed, August 3, 2005 - 12:51 AM
          OK! Another big clue towards Snape being a good ol guy! I am rereading the book and in the beginning I clearly read on the bottom of Page 34, that Snape said that Voldemort had never heard the prophecy... And then a bunch of questions clicked into place. Wait.. Didn't Snape hear the whole prophecy? And Harry thought Snape had told Voldemort the prophecy. But how could that be true if Voldemort did his whole schpeil in the 5th one to get the prophecy? And Prof. Trelawney specifically said that the barman had seen Snape crouched by the door, listening to the conversation within. So he obviously heard the Prophecy, But did not tell voldemort. Now thats a big big one to Snape. yay!
          • Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

            Wed, August 3, 2005 - 5:36 AM
            In HBP if Snape is talking about the unheard prophecy, he means the one that was broken at the MoM. That is the only time he mentions it, when he is implying it is Lucius's fault.
            Now, going back to 1980 at the Hog's Head Inn, according to Dumbledore, Snape never heard the entire prophecy and could therefore, not tell it in it's entirety. Actually, Dumbledore first mentions this in OOTP and again he claims this in HBP's later chapters.
            Snape did tell Voldemort some of the prophecy. This is the reason why Voldemort sought out the Potter's and tried to kill Harry. His acting on partial information put the terms of the prophecy into motion.
            In OOTP, he realizes that he must get the P, either because he knows Snape did not here it all or because he wanted to hear it word for word for himself. Either way, it seems inconclusive as to whether or not V had known and acted upon partial info.
            There is speculation about whether Snape actually heard the entire prophecy or not. Some say that Snape heard it all but was loyal to the Order and so relayed only a part of it to V. This is purposed because of Trelawney's awareness of Snape and the barman coming into the room. As we have seen ST give a prophecy before she doesn't remember any of it. So, it is supposed that well, she must have finished if she remember seeing Snape. Had he come into the room midway through, she wouldn't have remembered it.
            Then again there is the other side, that he heard part of it and was thrown out meanwhile it did interrupt ST and she did stop and come out of the trance but when he was thrown out she went back into the trance and finished the prophecy.
            However, Dumbledore maintains that the reason Snape is so surely loyal to the order is his regret at telling V part of the prophecy. AD says Snape was still a death eater when he heard part of the prophecy and what brought him back to the order was it was his greatest regret that his telling part of the prophecy to Voldemort led to the Potter's murder.
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

              Wed, August 3, 2005 - 1:09 PM
              ah. you set me straight. ok. it's all on page 549.

              Dumbldore="-He[Snape] was still in Lord Voldemort's employ on the night he heard the first half of Professor Trelawney's prophecy. -"

              ok. I missed that part... Now, I forget who Dumbledore first told Harry who had over heard the first half of the prophecy.. I think he might have just said a death eater over heard it.. But thena gain, I sort of remember a name...

              BUT. I don't think that Snape's regret for telling Voldemort was his main way of getting on Dumbledore's good side. Because right after Dumbledore tells Harry this, Harry asks him again why he trusts Snape. and Dumbledore says "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely". If Snape's regret was the main reason for trusting him, than Dumbledore would have said it again. I think we still don't know why he trusts Snape (or we know... we just don't know we know).


              ok. on a slightly different note. I caught something that may have no answer for it, or it may have a simple answer for it and I'm just thickheaded. But, on pg. 34, Snape says "-- He got himself captured, along with how many others, and failed to retrieve the prophecy into the bargain. --" Bargain? what bargain?

              bargain: An agreement between parties fixing obligations that each promises to carry out.

              What different people would Volde and the death eaters be "bargaining" with? I dunno.. it just caught my eye...
              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

                Wed, August 3, 2005 - 9:21 PM
                'in the bargin' is just a catch phrase as far as I know... i.e. he got caught during the whole thing - not necessarily relating to a specific bargin
                • Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

                  Wed, August 3, 2005 - 9:56 PM
                  I agree, Sin. He is usuing it to mean in addition, or also.

                  In OOTP, Dumbledore did not say a name when he told Harry that part of the prophecy was overheard.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: *Spoilers* Snape Theory

                    Fri, August 5, 2005 - 12:45 PM
                    ok thanks guys.
                    • Secrets from the first book.....

                      Sat, August 6, 2005 - 12:29 PM
                      I am rereading the first book. I think I know what Rowling was referring to when she said the Sorcerer's Stone book showed what will happen in these more recent books.

                      when harry was doing his detention with the Hagrid in forest; he encounters the centaurs. We learn they believe that Harry must be killed by Voldemort and that they shouldn't interfere.
                      • Re: Secrets from the first book.....

                        Mon, August 8, 2005 - 3:11 PM
                        Goodness. That would imply that Harry *could* be an accidental horcrux.
                        • Unsu...
                           

                          Re: Secrets from the first book.....

                          Mon, August 8, 2005 - 4:24 PM
                          how does that imply that? I know its a crazy possibillity, but how does that now show thats possible? explain thyself! :)
                          • Re: Secrets from the first book.....

                            Tue, August 9, 2005 - 10:23 AM
                            but i think perhaps it is just the centaurs interpretation of the prophecy.
                            • Re: Secrets from the first book.....

                              Tue, August 9, 2005 - 11:51 AM
                              Voldemort is one of the greatest wizards and he knows more about dark magic than almost anybody. So, I would assume that he is entirely competent in doing the horcrux spell that he wouldn't have done it by accident.
                              If Dumbledore is correct then Voldemort would have initiated the horcrux spell after Harry was killed as his intention was to create the horcrux with Harry's death. He cursed Harry with avada kedavra intending to kill him and so never had time to do any more spells as the curse rebounded upon him causing him to be separated from his body.
                              • Re: Secrets from the first book.....

                                Tue, August 9, 2005 - 12:03 PM
                                That's just it though, init? ;)

                                We don't *KNOW* what happened that night. We don't *know* that the AK curse was even used on Harry. No one has ever survived that curse and no other curse scar acts the way Harry's does. We've been repeatedly told that no one else was there the night of the attack or really knows what happened. For that matter, we don't know what goes into making a horcrux other than killing someone to shred your soul. We know Lily's sacrifice was what saved the boy, but we don't know from what.

                                It may be that after Lily was killed, V went about preparing the horcrux spell and had everything set when he made to eighty-six Harry as the final step. Whups, a mother's love gets in the way, the spell backfires, Harry becomes an accidental horcrux, and V becomes a shred of a soul.
                                • Re: Secrets from the first book.....

                                  Tue, August 9, 2005 - 12:10 PM
                                  Well, there is that mysterious 24 hours missing...
                                  Perhaps, the dark lord was not at all going to kill little Harry. Instead he was going to use Jamses or Lily's death to creat the horcrux in the baby, Potter and raise him as his own. However, he was thwarted by the love of lily and then was disembodied ;P
                              • Re: Secrets from the first book.....

                                Tue, August 9, 2005 - 1:09 PM
                                i think it was accidental if anything because he didn't think harry's mom's love was a threat. in the process a portion of himself actually entered harry..
                                • Re: Secrets from the first book.....

                                  Tue, August 9, 2005 - 1:10 PM
                                  anyway someone was shredded, voldemort lost his body when he tried to kill harry.
                                  • Re: Secrets from the first book.....

                                    Tue, August 9, 2005 - 4:19 PM
                                    Voldemort heard *half* the prophecy...

                                    Remember, also, that there were some who believed that Harry was to be a great Dark wizard, and that Voldemort was grooming him. I'm re-reading SS now, and Harry has that dream where he's wearing Quirrell's turban, and a voice keeps telling him he must switch Houses to Slytherin, because that's his destiny.

                                    I'm still not convinced that Harry is an actual Horcrux, but Voldy had SOMETHING up his sleeve, definitely.
                                    • Re: Secrets from the first book.....

                                      Tue, August 9, 2005 - 7:14 PM
                                      yeah i reread it as well. I think Harry had that dream because of the link he had with Voldemort. As for Voldemort remember he only cared for people only when he had a use for them. why would he give abilities to someone who could be a great threat to him? wouldn't it be easier to destroy them when they aren't a threat?
                                    • Re: Secrets from the first book.....

                                      Tue, August 9, 2005 - 7:16 PM
                                      you are right. i am guessing Snape only told him half of the prophecy. If Snape was the one, I wonder why he didn't tell him all of it.
                                      • Re: Secrets from the first book.....

                                        Tue, August 9, 2005 - 7:34 PM
                                        Well, most people assume that Snape only HEARD half of the prophecy ... but Trelawny said that her interview was OVER and she had secured her position at Hogwart's when what's-his-name busted in with Snape, so it sounds like he did hear the whole thing!

                                        Maybe he was having second thoughts way back then? Hmmm...
                                        • Re: Secrets from the first book.....

                                          Tue, August 9, 2005 - 8:03 PM
                                          another interesting tidbit is that I really want to know what Snape was doing throughout the fifth book. i have this aching suspicion that he was doing everything Dumbledore told him to do until he was made to do that pact with Malfoy in the sixth book. i think it is easy to assume that if Malfoy died Snape would have died as well. i have this feeling that if Dumbledore wasn't killed then Malfoy would have been killed because Voldemort was already mad at Lucius. I don't understand why they didn't do a complete invasion of Hogwarts. That is unless the Death Eaters numbers were really, really, low.
                                          • Re: Secrets from the first book.....

                                            Tue, August 9, 2005 - 8:16 PM
                                            Well, Malfoy only snuck in as many DE's as he thought he'd need for back-up through the cabinet - you'd THINK, though, that if Greyback came along when Draco wasn't expecting him, that they could have said, "Hey, while we're there, why don't we kick ass on EVERYBODY?" You know? And I'm still wondering who that big blonde 'tard was ... maybe he's that Malfoy cousin that "we just don't talk about him."

                                            And where the hell WAS Snape? Everybody kept saying, "Get Snape", and he was pretty late to the party. Was he just sitting there in his office this whole time?!? I don't buy it, really.

                                            I might just burst with anticipation before the next book gets here...

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